More Slides Please

[SKIdds]

Hopefully the SV Glades availability will be more in line with how often the Cloudsplitter Glades are open. That's what I'd expect. The Slides are unique given the amount of exposed rock and ice that needs to be covered, the general exposure of the terrain to wind, and the difficulty of access should patrol need to extricate someone. While the SV area is going to be huge and it looks like they are going to be great, they are still just glades and not an extreme wilderness area like the Slides.

I'd like to see the Slides opened a little more agressivley, but I understand the concerns and the reason for controlling access as tighly as they do. Given the litigious society we live in, can you really blame the mountain for erring on the side of caution. Last thing we need is an incident and a lawsuit that jeopardizes operations of this state run playground. I'll go out on a limb and agree that the Slides are skiable more days than they are open, but not skiable by all, or even most, so they have to be careful.

Hope to get in there again this year. Last year was a total bust. Year before my brother and I made the day trip when they had been open, but that morning one of the falls busted loose and they shut them down for the season. So close, and yet so far.

 

[Lbtchnlgs]

It's a tough debate. You can't push opening when there is moderate avy danger, if someone gets caught the isn't really worth it. Rescues take lost of trained professionals, money, and negative publicity. Look at what happened out West this past winter. People were afraid to ski in-bounds due to avy dangers.

Unfortunately you can't bomb in the adks or I'm sure they'd be open 70% of the time. It would be a MASSIVE draw and good for business, but it's just not possible.

Wouldn't this same avy danger close skyward, cloudspin...

Not at all.

 

[Harvey44]

Year before my brother and I made the day trip when they had been open, but that morning one of the falls busted loose and they shut them down for the season. So close, and yet so far.

SKIdds...I was at WF that exact same day. It was April 9 I think. I read reports about awesome slide skiing, from my desk at work, a few days earlier. I cleared up my work as fast as I could and busted my butt to get up there. I've never skied anything as difficult and I had a lump in my throat all the way up the Thruway.

Skied the morning for a hour or two and then saw this on the summit chair liftie hut:



I was pretty bummed.

Still, I'm willing go with Patrol on it. If they shut it down, I trust em. I don't have much experience at Whiteface, but at Gore...when things are shut on weekdays - it's for good reason. They are called slides for a reason. And I'm thinking that the steep summit trails have got to be less likely to slide due to the effects of grooming.

Still dreamin of my chance to get there on the right day.

 

[SKIdds]

Yeah, seeing that sign really sucked. For us it was a 3+ hour trip one way. Yes, the Slides are worth that drive. I've done it before to ski the Slides and I'll do it again.

I trust you stayed around that day. Even without the Slides it was a great day of skiing, with the whole mountain open.

 

[asland]

Still, I'm willing go with Patrol on it. If they shut it down, I trust em. I don't have much experience at Whiteface, but at Gore...when things are shut on weekdays - it's for good reason. They are called slides for a reason. And I'm thinking that the steep summit trails have got to be less likely to slide due to the effects of grooming.
Still dreamin of my chance to get there on the right day.

how many days out of the year are the slide actually closed due to avy danger?
When I grew up in lake placid, back before the slides were skied as part of whiteface, I was told the slides are called the slides because - further back than any of us - there was a rock slide that took out trees and stuff that grew there. I've been around Lake Placid for 37 years and the whole time I was there the only avalanche of any size, and it was still small, was a few years ago on upper cloudspin.
I may not of heard of others. People are speaking in generalities of slide danger in the slides but is that a reality? So, I sincerely want to know have you heard of avalanches there? Are there major avalanches there? when? Let me know. Either way, it should always be monitored and err on the side of safety but how many days are the slide closed due to avy danger?

Guidelines set Management need to loosen up
I am in no way bashing ski patrol. They do a fantastic job at whiteface - except that time they clipped my ticket when I was twelve. javascript:emoticon('') I think they just enforce the overly strict guidelines that management sets.

asland

 

[Harvey44]

Yeah, seeing that sign really sucked. For us it was a 3+ hour trip one way. Yes, the Slides are worth that drive. I've done it before to ski the Slides and I'll do it again.

I trust you stayed around that day. Even without the Slides it was a great day of skiing, with the whole mountain open.

I'd definitely do the drive again. And we did hang out that day 'til closing. It was a great day. I'm not really a decent bumper, but I had tons of fun on Lower Mac - the bumps were deluxe.

Asland - sorry if I came off as a know-it-all. That wasn't my intent. It makes total sense that the slides are named because they are rock slides, not because they avy. And I definitely don't know it all ...either the avalanche history at Whiteface or what makes a slope slide.

I think that the pitch of the slides is in the right range for avalanche ...around 35-45 degrees. Here's some numbers from a cool site that measures ski hill steepness:

•Cloudspin (overall): 250 vertical over 496 length = 26.7 degrees

•Cloudspin (steepest section) - 170 vertical over 303 length = 29.3 degrees

•Slides (overall): 1298 vertical over 2095 length = 31.8 degrees

•Slides (headwall) - 525 vertical over 742 length = 35.3 degrees

•Slides (steepest section) - 150 vertical over 155 length = 44.1 degrees

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Yeah, seeing that sign really sucked. For us it was a 3+ hour trip one way. Yes, the Slides are worth that drive. I've done it before to ski the Slides and I'll do it again.

I trust you stayed around that day. Even without the Slides it was a great day of skiing, with the whole mountain open.

I'd definitely do the drive again. And we did hang out that day 'til closing. It was a great day. I'm not really a decent bumper, but I had tons of fun on Lower Mac - the bumps were deluxe.

Ashland - sorry if I came off as a know-it-all. That wasn't my intent. It makes total sense that the slides are named because they are rock slides, not because they avy. And I definitely don't know it all ...either the avalanche history at Whiteface or what makes a slope slide.

I think that the pitch of the slides is in the right range for avalanche ...around 35-45 degrees. Here's some numbers from a cool site that measures ski hill steepness:

•Cloudspin (overall): 250 vertical over 496 length = 26.7 degrees

•Cloudspin (steepest section) - 170 vertical over 303 length = 29.3 degrees

•Slides (overall): 1298 vertical over 2095 length = 31.8 degrees

•Slides (headwall) - 525 vertical over 742 length = 35.3 degrees

•Slides (steepest section) - 150 vertical over 155 length = 44.1 degrees

Nice stats Harv

 

[asland]

Harvey44,

great stats. So, if there was going to be an avy it would be more likely to occur in the the steeper slides. So, have avalanches happened much in there, recently?

ps. I did not think you sounded like you were a know-it-all. Sorry, if I came off like that. With stats like these combined with your meteorological skills you are a good go to guy.

 

[Harvey44]

Thanks HPD and asland.

So, I sincerely want to know have you heard of avalanches there? Are there major avalanches there? when? Let me know. Either way, it should always be monitored and err on the side of safety but how many days are the slide closed due to avy danger?

I spent way too much time today, at work, Googling for info on this. I consider myself pretty good at using Google to find what I'm looking for and I found nada. Not one report of an avy on the slides, not one death or injury related to an avy on the slides - nothing. The only mentions I found that coupled "avalanche" with "whiteface slides" were on the Whiteface website and other sources that were either quoting the website (Wiki) or quoting signs on the mountain. I suppose it's possible that they slide midwinter and it doesn't get reported, but somehow that seems unlikely to me. I know there's a ton of local knowledge lurking on this board... pls share if you are so inclined. I'll stop speculating.

Oh yea. I am fairly certain that at SOME point the Chevy Avalanche was the Official SUV of Whiteface Mountain. :roll:

 

[Snowballs]

Well, there's this. It's interesting.

from " Exploring the 46 Adirondack High Peaks " - Whiteface chapter.......as he hikes the walkway to the very summit.

" The gashes on Whiteface that are so prominent from a distance come into focus as scars from avalanches, common on many Adirondack peaks. One of the more recent ones, on Labor Day 1971, came after three days of rain and a 4 inch downpour. It loosened the thin mantle of earth near Whiteface's summit and sent it plummeting downward with rocks and logs bulldozing a clean swath on it's way toward Lake Placid.

Such slides, according to Indian legend, prompted the Mohawks to call the peak Ou-no-war-lah or " Scalp Mountain. " Later explorers.....named it Whiteface for the light gray streaks of rock exposed by the slides, which reflect light from the sun.

The walkway to the summit also offers a close-up of the handiwork of glaciers that covered the Adirondacks during the Ice Age. They cleaned not just random streaks but the whole mountain. Some of the glacial action in fact was so severe that it created on Whiteface the most distinctive alpine features of all the Adirondack high peaks.

On the sides of the mountain the glaciers scoured out huge, rounded hollows called cirques. The trail to the summit skirts one of them, curving to the right along the upper rim, or headwall, that faces Lake Placid. The Whiteface ski center ...in the middle of another one (cirque) on the opposite side."

" most distinct alpine features of all..." Very fitting terrain for such a great ski center. a photo show the slides you ski as one that slid in 1971.

 

[Xtremeskiier]

What website is that that gives you the stats

 

[Alkyy]

I dont think i have ever seen or heard of any large avy on a whiteface slide. I on the other hand, i have heard of many avys in the high peaks, for example avalance slide (go figure) your not allowed to go on in the winter because the main trail through the pass cuts right below it and they dont want someone elses slide to take out an unsuspecting hiker.

slope isnt the only factor in an avy. A lower pitch can actually be worse then a steep one, a low pitch wont slide as often for the most part but when it does then it can be much larger. Our weather here sucks as far as avy safty goes. Think about it, how many seasons do we get a dump, it warms up, rains, freezes then we get a nice big dump on top of that. Sure it looks amazing a foot of fresh ontop of a nice base but thats where the danger is. the hard crust causes fracture points and causes it to slide.

With that said, i would love to see the slides open more, they are deffanatly over cautious with it in my opinion. lets hope for a nice consistant season and we should be riding some nice deep snow not spring slush which is all we got 2 seasons ago

I hope i dont sound like a know it all or an a hole this is just what i know from personal experience.

 

[zski]

i've been in the slides when they are open but require full avy kit

they are not fun in this marginal condition - i almost had to clean my undies out after one run. when the waterfalls are not fully filled in you need to make hop turns down the frozen waterfalls and if you biff you will ragdoll down the rest of them. in that condition a fall is potentially fatal

the avy kit requirement is the best way to funnel out the folks that don't belong but when patrol says its not ready beleive them

 

[Snowballs]

sage advice that puts a clearer light on it for us. thanks.

i guess the best we could hope for then is Ma Nature grant more good condition ski days for those who want to experience the Slides.

And a good chance to thank Patrol for the job they do. Thanks Guys!

 

[Jack the Ripper]

It's a tough debate. You can't push opening when there is moderate avy danger, if someone gets caught the isn't really worth it. Rescues take lost of trained professionals, money, and negative publicity. Look at what happened out West this past winter. People were afraid to ski in-bounds due to avy dangers.

Unfortunately you can't bomb in the adks or I'm sure they'd be open 70% of the time. It would be a MASSIVE draw and good for business, but it's just not possible.

How many days a winter is there significant avy danger at whiteface? Wouldn't this same avy danger close skyward, cloudspin...

Although avalanches are possible - maybe a few days per year.- anything is possible- and precautions should be taken - Significant avalanches are just not that big of an issue at whiteface.

Avalanche danger may close the slides a few days but the slides were closed every day last year.

didnt they even have a small avvy on upper skyward midway through last season?...yet it was still open for most of the second half

Yes.

It happened early a.m., before the lift was open to the public.

And man made :shock:

 

[Jack the Ripper]

Year before my brother and I made the day trip when they had been open, but that morning one of the falls busted loose and they shut them down for the season. So close, and yet so far.

SKIdds...I was at WF that exact same day. It was April 9 I think. I read reports about awesome slide skiing, from my desk at work, a few days earlier. I cleared up my work as fast as I could and busted my butt to get up there. I've never skied anything as difficult and I had a lump in my throat all the way up the Thruway.

Skied the morning for a hour or two and then saw this on the summit chair liftie hut:



I was pretty bummed.

Still, I'm willing go with Patrol on it. If they shut it down, I trust em. I don't have much experience at Whiteface, but at Gore...when things are shut on weekdays - it's for good reason. They are called slides for a reason. And I'm thinking that the steep summit trails have got to be less likely to slide due to the effects of grooming.

Still dreamin of my chance to get there on the right day.

It's all about timing....I skied WF pretty much every weekend for 5 plus years and never hit the slides once...then one fine Saturday they were open.

Had been hitting them regularly for a couple years until last years zero days opened

 

[zski]

not just avy danager - the real issue is ice

While the slides do have significant potential to let loose - in 2001 the fracture line went all the way from slide 1 to 3 - the real reason they are not open more often is ice on the waterfalls. If snow is not sticking to the ice then they are just not skable period. We are not talking about edgable ice but rock solid ice that edge hold is simply not possible on. once the ice starts to soften you can get a window where you can ski on the slush / ice in the waterfalls section. The worry then becomes holes opening up in the waterfalls as the run off is running under the ice - this is what closed them in early April 2 seasons ago

I love to ski the slides and want to ski them more often but you just need to accept that patrol knows what they are doing and if they aren't open its because they are not safe

 

[NPN]

Re: not just avy danager - the real issue is ice

I love to ski the slides and want to ski them more often but you just need to accept that patrol knows what they are doing and if they aren't open its because they are not safe

True 'dat.

 

[skimore]

the avy kit requirement is the best way to funnel out the folks that don't belong

That requirement is a joke. Whats the point except for the first group? Everyone after the fact wil be in the same area. And do you really expect people will be digging pits, skiing one at a time and utilizing safety zones

The majority of people equipped with the gear would be pursuing other options

 

[asland]

Let me start by saying that by questioning the rules I do not mean to be disrespectful to those that enforce them. I do not mean to in any way imply that they are not doing a good job. Of course they are doing a great job. I believe that this discussion is not even about ski patrol. This is about what rules they are told to enforce by management.

Think about it like this. When the NY speed limit was 55mph the state police would ticket those people going 65mph. When the rules loosened and the speed limit became 65mph the state police did not ticket people for going 65mph. That does not mean that all mayhem has broken loose. The police enforce the new rules to the best of their ability to keep all those on the roads safe.

The slides are like that. Management needs to loosen the rules. Not in a way where all mayhem breaks loose but loosen them all the same. Then ski patrol can work within the parameters of these new rules to make sure the slides are safe and enjoyable.

I am just asking management to take a second look at the rules they have placed on skiing in the slides. If possible to keep it safe and loosen the rules lets do it. This would still mean ski patrol checking the slide danger, checking the ice falls... and then making a call.

Keep it safe is number one priority but let us have fun as well.

asland